Survivalism by Proxy

[rvm45]

Friends,

Imagine the following scenario:

You have an ancient Great Uncle who you're not particularly close to. He owns a fair-sized Kentucky farm and has accrued perhaps a quarter million in untraceable cash—through years of scrimping and savings.

{He has a great deal more than this—this is the untraceable CASH that he can leave you secretly both TAX FREE and without disgruntled heirs taking you to court…}

You are picked because you're a loud-mouthed Survivalist. No one else in the family, has even your minimal qualifications to receive this mission request...

He leaves you a 600-acre farm and the quarter million in cash—ON THE CONDITION that you secretly establish a group retreat for his many idiot descendants to retreat to, when The Shit Hits The Fan.

I shared this scenario on another forum—with the single question:

What weapon would you pick to arm a bunch of idiots—some of whom have never fired a firearm, when the crunch comes?

Remember: Our Protagonist does not have UNLIMITED FUNDS plus he can't be too free spending his untaxed and unreported quarter million.

Besides, buying large quantities of AR-15s and AK-47s will get him EXTRA noticed.

{He has been preparing for 30-years or so…}

I was working on the idea of .303 Enfields. 8mm Mausers, 7mm Mausers or perhaps Russian Nagant Rifles. The SKS might also be a viable choice.

{Pick ONE}

You might have a different choice.

I want something that can be bought in quantity, fairly cheaply, and stacked like cord wood—SLIGHT EXAGGERATION…

You can answer that question if you want to…

BUT THAT AIN'T MY MAIN POINT HERE.

I was absolutely astonished at the overwhelming majority of my responses:

SCREW THE KINFOLK!!!!!!!!!!!!

They didn't prepare to survive, so they don't deserve to survive!

Are we missing a point here?

Whether they deserve to survive or not—Uncle Fudgepacker left you the farm on the condition that you look after these people. You gave your SOLEMN PROMISE that you would.

Does one's Word and Solemn Bond mean that little to the vast majority of people!??! Not the General Populace, but the type people who Prepare?

Keep in mind, this isn't Amoral Pragmatism created by exigent circumstances. The starving hordes aren't storming the farm. We are sitting on our dead asses and simply discussing things in a hypothetical sense.

And people are already so ready to throw aside all bonds of kinship and honor!

Parenthetically:


Once Uncle Fudgepacker is dead, his extended kin will be spread all over the Continental US with little need or inclination to keep in touch with each other—far less to visit our protagonist on the Kentucky Farm that Uncle Fudgepacker chose to leave to him for some obscure reason.

It is stupid to TELL everyone that he will leave a light on for them if and when TSHTF.

That gives away what you're doing. They probably won't take it to heart. They probably won't even remember that you told them.

The total collapse of Western Civilization is so far outside many folk's Paradigm, that it doesn't even register.

Second:

Even if Joe Sixpack Cubical Worker remembers what he overheard you telling Papa 20-years ago, can he even find your backcountry farm?

Phase One

Set aside a few acres to make a NICE Vacation Area…

Olympic-Sized Pool, recreation hall with pool tables and ping pong tables, a mini-theatre—just whatever it takes to draw the kinfolk in for their vacations, year after year…

Hey its free after all…

Even if they don't come EVERY year, they should show up enough to remember where your farm is.

Uncle Fudgepacker made much of his fortune running a large construction company. You have contacts to get MUCH of the stuff built either at a discount or even FREE.

Also, running a vacation retreat—even a private one—lets you buy food in quantity and build some housing without screaming:

"Anti-Government Survival Cult"!!!!!!!!!

"Why???"

You will be asked.

Mumble something incoherent about a promise made to Uncle Fudgepacker.

Yeah, you can even put in some firing ranges or at least a skeet and trap range and introduce the teens to shooting…

And have a range prepared for after.

NO!

You don't hand an Idiot an SMLE Enfield and point him at the starving hordes Hopefully, before the starving hordes actually show up, there will be a chance for a group class in weapon-handling and marksmanship…

Anyway, let me know what y'all think about PROMISES.

THANX.

…..RVM45

[papaof2]

The "family retreat" concept could work and you might be able to advertise a little to have just enough non-family business to cover the cost of on-going maintenance.

I'd say start with .22 rifles as they can't bruise a new shooter's shoulder and you can develop your basic infantry and your snipers from those who do the best with the smaller caliber. Something similar for handguns. Ammunition isn't cheap and most can't make their own.

Have "primitive camping" events which include finding water and food and digging holes for sanitation. Make it a competition for the kids and maybe the sdults (with prizes): Who can cover the most miles (map and compass only) or stay out the longest with the fewest supplies? Include simple communications such as mirrors during the day and drums at night - two drums with different notes can send Morse code and you can make your own drums.

[willc453]

Starting with .22 rifles is a good idea, but think I'd go for a single shot, bolt action one. I got one from 40 some years ago and it can shoot .22 short, long and long rifle ammo. Don't know if they're made any more, but a pawn shop maybe and you should hopefully get them cheap enough. Don't know how many family will show up or why, but 4 should do it. I've also seen a Youtube video where the 10-22 magazine is modified so you can shoot long rifle, though not sure about shorts. Rifles? AR-15's and some AR-10's, with the AR-10 having a bit of a better punch. Pistols would be revolvers, this way no one gets (hopefully) trigger happy while spraying and praying. As to supplies, canned stuff and MRE's, along with rice, seeds, etc. in food sealed bags. Maybe Uncle Fudgepacker has a barn filled with stuff he's kept, but couldn't just throw away. Hide supplies behind that stuff. Cooking wood stove and maybe a large propane tank to run the house gas stove on. Another tank (buried) for gas and hopefully Uncle Fudgepacker has a fireplace and chainsaw or two. Maybe pick up a chainsaw or three for free via Craigslist? Two portable generators from Craigslist. Farm tractor with plow/tiller, again from Craigslist/Facebook Market place to tilling the land until the gas runs out? Hatchets/axes. Just some quick & dirty thoughts.

[rvm45]

Well,

I was thinking that no one will practice marksmanship, UNTIL things start going to Hell in a handbasket and you have a bunch of people who have done little or no shooting show up, maybe 10 to 14-days before you have to start repelling large-scale attacks.

Yeah, the US military does a FAIRLY good job of teaching basic marksmanship in ONE WEEK.

EE…Take into account, the US Army recruits are firing at Paul Bunyan sized silhouettes that fall whenever they're struck with a single round—anywhere on the target—and even sometimes when a near miss throws a dirt clod at the target.

However, We want good solid 100-yards shooters. Never mind 300 or 350-meters away. As Jeff Cooper said:

"A man with a Rusty Mauser KNOWS that he must hold and squeeze. A man with a nice new UZI THINKS that he only need spray and pray."

Much the same might be said for people with M-16's or AR-15'S—and people with semi-autos can waste your limited ammunition much faster.

I'm a bit puzzled by the .22 references. Sure, a hit with a .22 is better than no hit at all…

But Damned Nation! If a miss is 0% effective, a single hit with a .22 will be maybe 3% effective. Out of 100 dudes that your people hit, 3 of them may either fall down dead, or turn and run away.

Whereas the same hit with almost any centerfire rifle cartridge—even the .30 M1 Carbine—should give you at least a 40% success rate with one hit. If 40% of the dudes fall down and stay down, the others will run away.

I think that y'all are thinking on FAR TOO LONG a time scale.

You may have to repel an attack within HOURS. YA HOPE NOT, but Damned Nation!

Hand out some—all but useless for combat—Ruger 10/22 Rifles (Bolt action rimfire are much more expensive than semi-autos) and then when a human wave attack takes place—hope you have time to collect all of the 10/22 Rifles—issue Bolt Actions with a completely different manual of arms—and hope for the best…?

Nah, I'd rather get a .303 Enfield into everyone's hands. Stress loading and aiming—including mostly dry-firing…

GET SOME people—with 4or 5-hours of instruction—out in the damned foxholes NOW—and add another of couple of hours of serious dry-firing every day, before you send the replacements out—at the beginning of the day, when their attention span is at the max.

{A study in Rhodesia—when ammunition was in very short supply—showed that a 6-week course with nothing but dry-firing was as effective—for all practical purposes—as 6-weeks featuring a reasonable amount of live fire.} Eventually, I would imagine that progress would stall without SOME live firing.

Given a week to 10-days and reasonably motivated people—now that it is raining and the Ark isn't finished—your people should be better marksmen than a company of NON-COMBAT US Army trained people.

A.} Because they will have Bolt Actions.

B.} They will only take 100-yard shots—or less—can you say "Aiming Posts"?

C.} Hopefully, your troops will be motivated.

I was an experienced Combat Pistol Shooter with very little rifle-shooting experience when I went through Basic Training.

I LOVE guns.

It was Cold and Miserable and my only motivation was trying to figure out how to get a discharge—and wondering what possessed me to sign up for such TORTURE.

Your Kin troops SHOULD—HOPEFULLY—be motivated by their and their families imminent survival...

[bluefox2]

Nov 30, 2020 16:43:59 GMT -6 willc453 said:

Starting with .22 rifles is a good idea, but think I'd go for a single shot, bolt action one. I got one from 40 some years ago and it can shoot .22 short, long and long rifle ammo. Don't know if they're made any more, but a pawn shop maybe and you should hopefully get them cheap enough. Don't know how many family will show up or why, but 4 should do it. I've also seen a Youtube video where the 10-22 magazine is modified so you can shoot long rifle, though not sure about shorts. Rifles? AR-15's and some AR-10's, with the AR-10 having a bit of a better punch. Pistols would be revolvers, this way no one gets (hopefully) trigger happy while spraying and praying. As to supplies, canned stuff and MRE's, along with rice, seeds, etc. in food sealed bags. Maybe Uncle Fudgepacker has a barn filled with stuff he's kept, but couldn't just throw away. Hide supplies behind that stuff. Cooking wood stove and maybe a large propane tank to run the house gas stove on. Another tank (buried) for gas and hopefully Uncle Fudgepacker has a fireplace and chainsaw or two. Maybe pick up a chainsaw or three for free via Craigslist? Two portable generators from Craigslist. Farm tractor with plow/tiller, again from Craigslist/Facebook Market place to tilling the land until the gas runs out? Hatchets/axes. Just some quick & dirty thoughts.

Ruger 10-22 magazines are already designed for long rifle rounds.  I know because I have several.    Bolt action rifles would probably be best even in 22 because the basic actions would be the same  Think muscle memory here.  However I would probably try to find Mosin 91/30s or M44 carbines although any of the bolt action older rifles would work if you can find enough of both guns and ammo.

[bluefox2]

So I wanted to follow up a little on this idea. I would look at all of the bolt actions mentioned but possibly the deciding factor would be ammo availability and reloadability. Also remember that it is likely that some of your kin will be seriously out of shape. If you pick up any modern firearms that have selector switches for full auto only pick those folks that you know for sure will not go into full "spray and pray" mode to handle them. Just my random thoughts.

[workhorse]

I would suggest shotguns cheap can stock like cordwood. Also if some get there just before the galloping hordes. They will not have a lot of time to train maybe only hours? ( your the author I have no idea). Also easy to reload and buck shot at 40-60 yards is much more forgiving than a single projectile. Maybe not for all but the late arrivals and internal guards/ breech blockers.

[hua man]

30/30s? Cowboy guns: lever actions and revolvers? Same that can fire black powder? Homemade smoke poles (muzzleloaders)? Remember you'll need reloading on ammo.
Shotguns: both pump and single/double barrels?
Slings (peltists) and Arrows (archers). Catapults.


Foodstuffs: MREs and freeze dried will run out and get monotonous quick. Grains and legumes. Old school farming. animal husbandry. Medicines for human and animal will run out or go bad. Herbologists and apocatheries.

Schooling. Paper and pen will run out. Slates or small paper mill. Quill pens. Books will degrade. Printing presses? Scrolls?

Clothing: Cotton, hemp, wool? Spinning, carding, weaving. Leather goods? Shoes, sandles, bare feet?

[papaof2]

There's a "Physician's Desk Reference" for herbals as well as the more commonly seen one for commercial meds. About $60 used on Amazon the last time I checked.

Some places have chalk deposits so use that with your slate. Possibly a future trade item? On-going, pieces of safety glass from vehicle windows could be used as "slates" and anything removable that makes a legible mark could be the "chalk" - if you're in Georgia, red clay would work ;-)

Lots of room for "shadetree mechanic" solutions in a future without fuel for vehicles and farming or power for manufacturing/<your choice here>. Remove the engine & transmission & grille/hood/fenders and mostly gut the cab of a basic pickup truck to make a weather-friendly horse/mule-drawn wagon. If you can find even small solar power equipment (think Harbor Freight), you could use that to charge the truck's battery daily so you would have use of the truck's lights (probably no more than the running lights or parking lights needed for animal speeds) and the wipers. If you have running water or enough wind, use the truck's alternator to charge batteries for limited lighting and maybe other uses: a water source that turned the alternator fast enough to produce just 10 amps *continuously* would be able to power a typical 28 cu ft fridge/freezer via an inverter as long as the batteries and the inverter could handle the fridge's starting power. If the alternator delivered 20 amps continuously, you could power the fridge and a freezer.