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Post by biggkidd on Sept 11, 2021 13:26:14 GMT -6
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 11, 2021 15:43:16 GMT -6
My first question is: how will you mount the Honda bits? The rotor and stator typically have very small clearances so can you machine - or have machined - the needed bits in material sturdy enough to handle several horsepower and handle it running 24/7? (746 watts = 1HP) Second question: what type of enclosure for the wheel and how do you waterproof those bearings? You don't want water on the generating bits. IF you have adequate water flow - and that's often a very big IF - you might be able to have the equivalent power of the EU2000 but you need to determine the GPM and the feet of head to know how much potential power is available. One member here has reported 20,000 hours on his Honda EU. That sounds good, but if it's running 24/7 that's just a little over 2 years. Would the generating bits be designed for longer life than the engine? From www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#How%20much%20power, 50GPM with 20 feet of head generates a whopping 72 watts. 60 feet of head and 150GPM give you 648 watts. How much continuous power do you need and how big are the peaks? Unlike the EU2000, the electronic controls can't crank up the water flow when the load increases unless you have a high water flow with some very large servos turning valves on large water pipes. How much water flow and how much head? What's the maximum pressure the available water flow can deliver to the nozzle(s) for the Pelton wheel? Maybe have one nozzle powering the wheel at low loads and a second nozzle turned on when the load increases? If you're comfortable with the answers to those questions, build it and see how well it works - then tinker with it until you're happy - or have decided you can't get any more power out of it. That's the ultimate answer for every shadetree mechanic ;-) Generating a small amount of power continuously CAN provide ongoing power BUT you need storage to cover the starting surge of a fridge, freezer or almost anything with a motor. If someone in one of my stories has backup power, it almost always includes batteries. For example, a car alternator with enough water flow to deliver 15 amps continuously could provide 360AH or 4310WH daily (at 12 volts). There's NOT enough directly from the alternator (14 volts * 15 amps = 210 watts) to START the freezer but it could keep it running. However, an adequate battery bank with a big enough inverter (lots of calculations in "adequate" and "big enough") will be able to start and run fridge, freezer, blower on gas-fired central heat, some LED lighting, a laptop and charge your cell phone using the power from that water-powered alternator (even more efficient if your convert the car alternator to PM but that's a different discussion). Using a battery bank for storage also means you still have some amount of power when the turbine is down for maintenance (replace bearings in 10 years? LiFePO4 batteries have a potential life of 20+ years IF properly cared for.), the water channel needs cleaning (or is iced over), beavers build a dam on the stream, storm takes down trees that block stream or whatever. |
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Post by biggkidd on Sept 11, 2021 17:45:39 GMT -6
Let me answer what questions I can some will have to wait for answers as I don't know yet. I am the one who has multiple Hondas with loads of hours and not one of them has ever had an electrical issue relating to power production. The highest known hour machine is now over 25,000. As far as mounting the generator bits I might just use the the Honda block it's already mounted to along with part of the crank. If not I can get those pieces made one way or another. My maximum head without any dam work is 35 feet. Which isn't much until you figure I can fill and keep full a 4 inch pipe. So a fair amount of volume. IIRC a 4 inch pipe gravity flows better than 200 GPM. With such a low head a different turbine or possibly a wheel may be better.
I usually under estimate when doing things like this so I used the following numbers. 20 feet of head with 100 GPM through 600 feet of pen stock and came up with 180 watts. We already have batteries and 6,000 watts of solar panels so that's a given. This would make up some for sunless days and long winter nights. Ah speaking of winter the flow probably triples or better during the winter / wet months. If I can make 100 watts continuous I'd be one happy camper!
As of this minute we only have 2400 watts of panels hooked up and they carry all loads fine during sunny days. Our biggest problem is batteries my current battery bank is only 600 or 650 AH @ 48 volts. 99% of our generator use comes from times when AC is needed after the sun goes down. My other big use of generator power is when I'm working in the shop. It's to far from the house so it's always generator. I just put up a solar panel mount for the shop and have the inverter and charge controller for up there. I'm still working on batteries though. My battery guy left the place I've always gotten the killer deals on slightly used batteries. It's taken a lot of years to get to this point but I keep inching along.
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 11, 2021 19:12:03 GMT -6
Using the Honda block with crankshaft means keeping the piston (for balance) and removing the spark plug - or blocking both valves open (possibly both for maximum air flow and minimum piston friction). It does provide a secure mounting. The numbers from the hydro page work out to about 1000 watts so 600 watts is a reasonable working value. Aliexpress has Liito Kala 280AH LiFePO4 cells 4 for $441 including shipping (4 cells = 12 volt battery and almost drop-in replacement for any type of lead-acid battery). www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001651207341.html?spm=a2g01.12616982.tplist001.6.110e601ciWqfPr&gps-id=5950812&scm=1007.23961.125497.0&scm_id=1007.23961.125497.0&scm-url=1007.23961.125497.0&pvid=db27a5a3-396c-44cc-8ea6-9cbc240e238dYou will need a BMS for that battery, but it can be based on the maximum charge/discharge current and not the battery AH rating. My wishful design is four 12 volt, 280AH LiFePO4 batteries in parallel with a 100 amp BMS on each one (knowing that the maximum load is less than 200 amps, that's a good safety factor). With BMS's and additional wiring, fuses and breakers (and their shipping), that's about $2400 - $2600 which I haven't yet convinced myself to spend. If I limited those batteries to 70% DOD, that configuration would power fridge, freezer, lighting, internet and charging cell phones for 42 hours with no outside power in summer; 71 hours without the freezer in summer; 56 hours without freezer but with furnace in winter. Tempting. However, you're looking at a battery bank that is rated for 2000 charge/discharge cycles to 100% discharge, possibly double that to 70-80% discharge and doubled again (or more) at 50% discharge. 4000 charge/discharge cycles to 70% discharge works out to 10.9 years (life = down to 80% of original capacity). That life works out to $20/month for those almost 11 years and the monthly cost decreases if the batteries last 20 years. Lab tests with "charge to 75%; discharge to 25%" point to 20,000 charge/discharge cycles - based on one cycle/day, that's 54 years: my grandkids could have solar power ;-) Definitely tempting... If I had to purchase new batteries right now, the price of 400AH of AGM (~$800 or $2/AH) would almost pay for 560AH of LiFePO4 with much longer life (~$1250 or $2.32/AH). If local power weren't as cheap as it is ($0.046/kWH for first 500kWH, $0.09/kWH for next 500kWH for last month's usage), running part of the house on solar might be a paying proposition. |
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Post by biggkidd on Sept 11, 2021 19:46:57 GMT -6
I would cut the throw out of the crank IF I used the Honda block or just use a straight shaft in it's place. All just ideas right now. I was more or less considering buying the pelton wheel just to have it in hand as a prep at this time. I already have to dang many projects. But if things come crashing down having one in hand might be nice.
As to batteries I'm working on to sets of 2 volt cells that have been neglected for 3 years. They would give me 300 AH at 12V for the shop. Which I generally only work in there during the day time anyway.
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 11, 2021 20:57:24 GMT -6
Unless the Honda engine has an oil pump, it uses splash lubrication, often from a "stirrer" on the bottom of the piston rod. You need that to keep oil running over the crankshaft bearings. An oil pump would probably be driven by a gear on the crankshaft so you may have to keep it in place.
Doesn't pay to neglect lead-acid batteries for any period of time. Recharge immediately after discharge. Store charged and (depending on temperature) check even the AGM batteries every three months or less. I found some 100AH and 110AH AGM's that had been used for backup power on security camera systems. Three were in fair to good condition at 12 volts (recharge point in storage is 12.3) but some were at 8 volts - stored discharged or stored too long without being checked and those are generally not recoverable. I offered the seller $100 each for the 15 month old batteries that still held a good voltage and told him I'd only offer $5 each for the others to use as cores because they were probably dead. He felt my offer was better than nothing so I took 3 good and 4 probably bad batteries home with me.
I charged all the batteries, used a desulfator on them for multiple days, recharged and then did capacity tests. I was surprised that ONE of the 4 questionable batteries did recover! The other 3 are all marked "core" for the next time I buy a new lead-acid battery and they want a $15-$20 "core charge". I wound up with two 100AH and two 110AH plus 3 cores for a grand total of $320. The previous set of used AGMs (data center UPS grade batteries) were almost 9 years old when I replaced them, so I got good life from those and I'm optimistic about getting 4+ years out of this set.
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Post by biggkidd on Sept 11, 2021 21:26:03 GMT -6
Yes the Honda's use splash lube, no oil pump. I've been inside them enough to know. I was amazed when I pulled down the one with 25,000 hours the plastic cam pulley that was installed at 12,000 hours showed ZERO wear. That was a first for me, usually at 10-12,000 hours and the plastic is fairly worn. This particular generator has had Mobil 1 oil in it since it had 100 hours on it. I usually install a new cam pulley and timing belt between 10 and 15 thousand hours. The foam air filter of this unit disintegrated and was ingested sometime between 23,000 and 25,000 hours. I got new rings for it in the mail today. New filters got here earlier this week. Guess I found the point of no return for wash and reuse filters! Amazingly I can not feel ANY play in the rod bearing I keep spare rods on hand as they do wear out, usually by around 20,000 hours. This is the first time I've had to put new rings in one. That may be tomorrow's project. Along with cleaning the carb and intake. I'll decide about the rod when I tear it down. In the past I generally just replace them when they have major damage or get much past 20,000 hours. But since I have several that are up past 20,000 hours I am going to go ahead and repair this one and see how it does. If it works out I will do the next highest hour one and so on. It's hard to keep buying new ones every 3 or 4 years.
AS far as keeping crank bearings lubed I'm almost certain I can get sealed bearings the same size as the oil lubed bearings. I need to look in to that if this project goes anywhere. I currently have three of these in hand and will have a fourth in the next week or two. It's an unknown unit to me as it was picked up for cheap looking more abused than used...
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 11, 2021 22:48:26 GMT -6
Abused - the 5000 watt Generac I picked up via Craig's List for $80 when the seller couldn't get it to run more than three or four seconds. I thought the throttle linkage looked odd so I made that offer and he jumped on it. Some work with pliers to get things as I thought they should be and the gen ran - needed the choke on a little (dirty carb?) but it ran. I now have a 2.5 liter ultrasonic cleaner so I'll pull that carb and give it a good cleaning and see if that resolves the problem. I did add the oil filter kit to the gen, guessing that if I had it running it would likely be running for a long time - it's a loud and thirsty beast that's difficult to hide when running. I just might find some neighbors wanting power - but only if they come with filled gas cans in hand and their own extension cords. I consider that the "damaging weather" gen because it can run the 10" table saw and a circular saw at the same time. If we have no damage, it'll be solar power until we must get out the 1600 watt inverrter gen.
In an extended commercial power outage, we'd move the freezer bags (from berries, steaks) from the bottom of the freezer to the top to extend its "stay cold" hours. Then plan how empty the freezer to the bottom freezer of the big fridge, removing the catch tray the ice maker uses and using that space for flat things such as pizzas and bags of frozen veggies, then re-shuffling things to get maximum space in the bottom freezer. Much easier to power one appliance than two. Then we use what's in the big fridge/freezer until it's down to what will fit the 4.4 cu ft counter height fridge that lives in the basement. That fridge plus lights and charging cell phones would have 3+ days of power without sun and, even in winter, 600 watts of solar panels would provide a day's power and recharge the previous sunless day's use. 1200 watts of solar powers a day's use and recharge's 3 days' use, so sun every second or third day would be all that's needed. I could also add insulation to the outside of the little fridge and probably cut it's daily power usage by maybe half. I could make an evaporative cooler that achieved springhouse temperatures (clay pot wrapped in damp towel with a small battery-powered fan blowing air over it) but that only works during the heating season in the muggy, sunny South :-( The battery-powered fan would also work (slowly) for drying clothes inside the house on a rainy day during heating season. I use a 120mm (4 3/4 inch) 12 volt fan to cool a 300 watt DC supply when using it for a quick recharge of the solar battery bank. Don't remember the CFM, but it moves a lot of air.
Having options means you have backups to your backups ;-)
Speaking of carbs, I need to replace the carb on the Honda-powered pressure washer. More outside things I need to get to the next two days as we have 8 days of isolated/scattered thunderstorms in the forecast - not the best days for outside work.
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Post by biggkidd on Sept 12, 2021 9:04:16 GMT -6
I think I have 6 or 7 of those big noisy generators. Two of which I use fairly regularly. They do like their gas and oh lord the noise kills me. The older I get the less I want to hear crap run. I have one at the big shop air compressor and another for the welders and plasma cutter. Most everything else runs fine on the EU2000's. Thankfully the air compressor has a large tank and a single run is usually enough for most of my projects. Plus it has NO air leaks so it will hold air year round until I need it again. If I ever get around to it I also have several more large air tanks I can plumb in line for more air storage. One is the biggest air tank I've ever seen IIRC we couldn't close the tailgate on the 8 ft bed when we brought it home and it's about 3 ft across. Just more preps...
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 12, 2021 15:33:56 GMT -6
That big air tank works out to about 56 cu. ft. That's a lot of air at 90PSI ;-)
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Post by papaof2 on Sept 12, 2021 17:49:43 GMT -6
I've been thinking (yes, the local FD is on standby ;-) and most of the inverter generators generate high voltage DC (~300 volts) to power the inverter which then produces AC. While the easiest thing is to use it as is, it might be more efficient if you can find a large (2-3KW) DC-DC buck converter to convert that high voltage DC directly to the 50-odd volts of DC needed to charge a "48 volt" battery bank. Unless you find the parts in surplus, it may not be worth the cost for the difference in efficiency.
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